Original Link:
http://worldtomorrow.wikileaks.org/episode-12.html?nocacheTranscript part 1/3:[12:10:36.21]
JA:
I just want to go into first your big dramatic story with your imprisonment because this is just easy for people to relate to emotionally.
[director chat about air conditioning]
[12:11:26.23]
JA:
So, this personal story with you and how you survived and so on, and then move into what is Malaysia like… because it’s like… I think Malaysia is like all of Europe in one country because it’s so diverse and so many elements and languages and religions and so on, and to give a bit of flavour of that for people who aren’t Malaysians – what is this country that you are operating in? And then I want to move into Malaysia’s relationship with the region and the changes that are happening in Malaysia and in Asia as a whole, and how you see Malaysia relating to Asia and the region as a whole. And the influence of China and Australia. And then, look into the… what’s happening with Islam in Malaysia and these other forces and tensions that are happening in Malaysia. And then look at the ISA and abuses of the ISA, and what’s happening with the rule of law in Malaysia and the Sharia courts versus non-Sharia courts and how these different systems interact with each other.
[12:12:57.03]
AI:
This line of questioning, no way Najib would accept your invitation.
[12:13:02.17]
JA:
[laughs]
Well, yeah. I suspect he is not going to accept anyway, you know. But I would love it if you and Najib and Raja Petra and we all have one big thing, I think this would be incredible, and…
[12:13:17.10]
AI:
He didn’t respond, and you know our guys went crazy.
[12:13:21.04]
JA:
I know. That was incredible and when he attacked you for being a… saying that you were a coward, so now we have this, so now we can say exactly the same thing…
AI:
That’s true.
JA:
He’ll probably say ‘Well, I really want to do it but, you know, my schedule is too full’. Damn it. Ok.
[12:13:52.16]
AI:
But how are you before that? Before we start, do you have a few minutes after the interview? I would like to hear you.
[12:13:59.12]
JA:
Absolutely, absolutely.
[12:14:03.16]
JA:
So, perhaps we will just have a brief outline of your history but not too long because I want to cut into this more dramatic period of your life, but Anwar Ibrahim you were a student activist from your early days within Malaysia and you were imprisoned as a young man. Can you tell me a little bit about what your big political progression is over this time? Because you’ve gone from being quite a young man involved in student politics all the way to being Deputy Prime Minister and then cast into solitary confinement and coming out and resurrecting yourself as an opposition leader.
[12:14:48.16]
JA:
Thank you, Julian. I mean, we started off as… most of us as student activists wanting to portray outside the conscience of the people against corruption, abuse of power, and for Malays and the majority Malay/Muslim in Malaysia our concern that comes clearly the issue of lagging behind economically educational standards, so these were the concerns. And those were the years when we wanted to define the rule, the majority leads at that time, issue of language, issue of education, the law of Islam in the country, but Mohamad came into the picture. I mean, I was arrested bit prior to that for supporting land farmers in the North, demanding same treatment, fairer treatment from the government… and two years in detention without trial – there was Internal Security Act – but later when Mohamad became Prime Minister he came with a mission, clearly as a reformer, and I was frankly attracted to that. We had a series of discussions and I joined on this reform platform to change… course of… in direction of the country, economic, poverty alleviation, against corruptions creeping in, and also the rule of Islam in terms of ethical values in the society, multi-racial multi-religious society, and came up very fast to become Deputy Prime Minister, only to be sent back for six years in prison.
[12:16:47.16]
JA:
So, I want to look at this imprisonment of yours. So, under Mahathir, who was a strong leader of Malaysia for many years, there are a number of people who came up to the position of being Deputy Prime Minister and were cast out one by one, and… but your fall from grace was the most dramatic. Can you tell me what happened?
[12:17:12.02]
AI:
It’s interesting, you see, one Deputy Prime Minister, my predecessor, stated that had he challenged Mohamad after he was sacked, then there would be probably ten similar or worse allegations against him, so they decided therefore to just remain rather muted, and support. I, on the contrary, thought that Malaysia, it’s ripe for a… to support a reform agenda. I thinkwe are… we should mature as a democracy after half a century of independence. Because of that, I was of course badly assaulted the first day I was det… sent to police custody. This was by the Chief Inspector of Police, and I was sent then to solitary confinement in prison. It was, of course, not a bed of roses, it was tough. Initially, I was not given even books to read but the international media and friends internationally did voice out and I think finally they did concede and allow books, and I thought I became slightly smarter, being able to read The Complete Works of Shakespeare four and a half times – that’s rare. All the classics… and I thought it’s a good… good time to reflect other than agitate and, er, read the great classics. I mean, Boris Pasternak and, you know, Tolstoy – you really read them in prison. And it’s interesting – from the prism of prison walls, you understand, you appreciate better. There’s no interruption, you immerse yourself in the storyline. Sometimes a bit depressing, of course. I mean, look at the walls, but look… you… you become part in a play, you… I’ve never internalised or appreciated King Lear or, you know, the dialogue with Cordelia, you know… until you landed in solitary confinement.
[12:19:28.18]
JA:
When I was in prison, and I read Cancer Ward, this book by Solzhenitsyn, which is a very… a wonderful, wonderful book but very, very depressing and very brutal but I felt ‘Well, there’s worse places I could be. I could be in a Siberian cancer ward with cancer, for instance. And this…
[12:19:53.23]
AI:
You… A rigid routine and keep yourself extremely busy… punishing schedule, you know… Five o’clock wake up and there’s some… We have a group who perform morning prayers then… although it’s solitary confinement and my schedule’s very tight, then you start reading the classics, then contemporary works and write lots of letters, which you have to smuggle. Most of it, clearly… Some of it, clearly was missing because we had to smuggle through the files, inside files of the counsel, who come and see me once a week or once a fortnight.
[12:20:40.02]
JA:
So you used to smuggle into… books or letters or… with your counsel?
[12:20:48.04]
AI:
Books no, because books they did allow except if it is, you know, it mention about Anwar or reform [inaudible] then even economics, or sometimes with history books when they would blank over that page or tear, but otherwise they would allow books to be brought in. Initially, they said two books a week plus two magazines but I told them I could finish them in three days, so I’m pleading then they allowed more books to be brought in.
[12:21:20.16]
JA:
So if I could go back to this initial dramatic arrest of yours. So, the allegations at that time were corruption, sodomy, and they really tore you to pieces in the Malaysian media. You were in prison. How much of an understanding did you have when you first entered prison, what was happening in this maelstrom outside?
[12:21:48.23]
AI:
Things were brewing up at least six months prior to the sacking. There were differences over economic policies, bailouts, whether I should approve the two million ringgit to Mohamad’s son, which I did not. With the bailout, whether the priority should be the banks and the top corporate guys, or should you deduct allocations for education and health. My priority was not to affect the medium- and the low-income groups, but the lobbying of the cronies and the family members were too strong, so I did actually anticipate something serious was going on. I hear rumours because at that time you see I still had access to the Attorney General’s office or the police, you know, and you can see their movements into the Prime Minister’s office – the Chief Judge, Inspector of Police, Attorney General – going back and forth to the Prime Minister’s office, just adjacent to mine. But I did not believe it, I did not ever thought that they would such… in such speed arrest me and imprison me and smear me with these scurrilous attacks beyond my imagination, and then brutally attack me without even access to medical attention. For days I was just left there. Prison off… and at that time police officers, the Commandant of the camp broke down in tears the following Monday when he saw me and said he was not responsible, but didn’t want to say beyond that, which means you’ve actually shocked the police officers too.
[12:23:36.23]
JA:
The first six months that you were in prison you could only have the Qur’an, just this one book, and after six months you were permitted access to other books, and what books did you choose to keep you going?
[12:23:56.04]
AI:
Well, to be…Shakespeare was one, the collected works of Shakespeare was one of the first that I requested, then the classics and because, you know, we come from multi-racial, multi-liberal society, I asked for Islamic classics, the Confucianist works of people like Tu Weiming, the new Confucian Harvard scholar, of Bhagavad Gita and Ramayana, the Hindu epics and, of course, the Alan Bloom … er, no, no – Harold Bloom!
[12:24:29.24]
JA:
Harold Bloom. And what did you feel…? This is of interest to me because I have a number of friends who have been imprisoned. Your view about how to handle the experience – did you have a method that you thought ‘Well, this is the correct way to deal with solitary confinement, it is to create some kind of order’. How did you control the perception of the passage of time and things like this?
[12:24:59.01]
AI:
Well, it was tough. I mean, now I think it may sound easy but at that particular time it was very tough because I was… My kids were very small then, the youngest was still in kindergarten, and the day… the time I was arrested I could see, I mean, this picture – the anguish, the despair. And my mother was very ill and… So, these were the issues that you actually have – you reflect a lot, ‘Why did she?’, you know – kids and parents and friends… And you have no access to the media, which on hindsight was a good thing, particularly the local media because the local media was so nasty, presenting this wild view of Mohamad and the ruling party and excessive, incessant propaganda and paedophiling campaign, so you just hear all these whispers. But what gave me some strength because you know, I had some experience – I had two years’ experience prior to that, I was much younger – and then you see the prison officers and guards were extremely friendly. They were very scared, there were cameras all around, but you can sense their sympathy and support – that keeps you going but then your hear some whisperings about what was happening, demonstrations outside… But otherwise, I just kept myself just very busy – ‘I have to complete…’, you know – and with copious notes, right?- for example, ‘War and Peace by Wednesday’, ‘Thursday will start Bhagavad Gita’, you know? Just things like that, so that you are… which you compare and you don’t actually do complete that, you think ‘Well, my goodness, I need to do something to discipline myself and do more, sleep less’, because it can be very lethargic. You become… you become… sense of indolence in prison.
[12:27:08.00]
JA:
What about… did you have a TV in prison, or radio?
[12:27:13.06]
AI:
Nothing. No radio, no TV, no newspapers.
[12:27:14.16]
JA:
So this might have actually been good for you… you know, there’s these prisoners who – and not just in prison – people sometimes out of prison become lethargic and absorbed by TV and distracted from pursuing their life, but perhaps the lack of external stimulus like that permitted you to construct this internal life through literature?
[12:27:38.21]
AI:
Yeah, that’s also true because I think ifI had, for example, given TV or radio you’re bound to go for some… I mean, spend some time at this radio and television, although radio will be confined to the local networks. But not all serious, Julian, I got to be very honest, I spent a long… not long hours, but certainly… in the washroom, in the bathroom, singing the Beatles, Ricky Nelson or Elvis Presley, and I’m amazed… I mean, the guards, the prison officers were surprised that you actually could memorise the lyrics of these ’70s numbers. So you [inaudible] with the English, Malay, even Hindi songs.
[12:28:30.04]
JA:
And while you were inside what was happening to your family and your wife outside?
[12:28:35.17]
AI:
Azizah, I mean, you can see her, she was… I mean, she looks fragile but she’s… she’s totally tough and strong and, you know, held the family together and she was marvellous. That has helped us immensely. Can you imagine, I mean, in the few meetings that I had she then told the children ‘Look, we are going to visit Papa, please be calm, be happy, don’t ever talk about your problems and worry about this’? So, they came in and we chat and ask about their education and things like that, and then we tend to sing some songs too – you know, just… just, you know, ‘It’s Now or Never’, Elvis Presley or… you know… and so that we end on a very, very happy note. But, as Aziazah later on told me, that the drive back home was clearly more difficult, and similarly for me – I would just, you know, I wouldn’t be able to read or do anything for hours because it is… it is very depressing at that point in time, I mean. But you… then you realise that ‘God, it is a battle’, it’s a major challenge, and if you do surrender then the whole battle will be lost.
[12:30:16.10]
JA:
And while you’re inside, outside your wife is pushing forward a big campaign for your release.
AI:
Yes.
JA:
Did you have any idea how big this movement was that she had created while you were inside?
[12:30:31.17]
AI:
Not really, but from the whisperings of… and received from the guards and sometimes letters smuggled in, then I realised. And there was some of the prison officers who’d tell me ‘I attended the rally ten miles out of Kuala Lumpur and then we heard, you know, your wife and speeches’. And I said ‘How many attended?’ He said ‘At least 20,000 people’, so I thought there’s something… something, you know, real happening in Kuala Lumpur. And I could, of course, sense that because on the day I was arrested we have held for the first time the biggest ever rally in the history of Malaysia – 100,000 people in that roundup – although the official news said 4,000 or 5,000 and then later on even the Inspector of Police confirmed at least 70,000, but when it comes to the reports then I felt greatly encouraged, not only from the messages I hear, or I heard from Azizah, but more so in terms of news from the prison guards. They would tell me ‘Yeah, we were there’, and many of them on the quiet became members of the party.
[12:31:47.00]
JA:
And did you have a sense of being part of Malaysian history, of being part of something bigger than yourself when you heard about these protests outside and the movement surrounding trying to get you out?
[12:32:04.14]
AI:
Well…
[12:32:04.08]
JA:
Because my experience in prison is that… you were pushed down to consider the most trivial things, such as you must have a shower at a certain time, and you must go from this room to that room at a certain time, and you must fill out all these incredibly tedious forms. And so, if you had previously been thinking about, if you like, great matters of state and international politics, and suddenly you were drawn down into… into thinking about your socks and how cold it is and so on, but then on the outside you imagine – but you cannot see – that there are people protesting and there is some historic moment going on, but you can’t see it.
[12:32:57.19]
AI:
Yeah. It’s… Well, you could not ever imagine that after assuming, you know, an acting premiership for example, as you said, you deal with the…you know, the ‘I need some hot water for the shower because my excruciating back pain after the assault’. You have to argue the case about how many books you can read or you can’t read, and any reference to the word ‘revolution’ or ‘Left’ would be disallowed. But it… it… the reading is not even to get some press [indecipherable] , you have to argue the case out. This took quite… quite some time, it’s not… not just a simple yes or no because whilst the prison officers seem to be quite supportive they’re very scared because the system is very oppressive, so you… you really actually reflect on things, what’s happening outside – yes, you do and I think that kept me going too, you know. They said ‘Look, wait for the elections and I think we’ll prove our case’, and I’m… and no way can they continue with these lies. I remember in the Vaclav Havel note, it said… you know, summarising from his earlier works, it said: ‘No one could ever think that you are the only guy in prison’. The leadership was also in prison – they read, they reflect, they hear only what is… what was told to them, that they were in a way more unfree than yourself. So I had this notion that ‘Somehow or other, you will be vindicated and you’ll be able to address’, and you trust the wisdom of the masses. How is it that you can get 100,000 people without that sophistication, without media excess? But you still reflect based on the dictates on your conscience or the habits of the heart.
[12:35:13.19]
JA:
How did you get out? In the end, when… why were you released from prison? What was the finding?
[12:35:23.22]
AI:
Mohamed resigned, you know, because… although it was just a matter of his decision to quit… but certainly the elections 1999, although the ruling party won but they lost the Malay heartland and the Malay base. At that time, at that point in time, the ethnic Chinese and Indians were not too sure about this Malay change when they saw these… the Malay community particularly enraged, so they then opted to support the ruling party. But Mohamed got the signal – and the international media. And also some of his extreme statements, racist and anti-Semitic, was then seen as a [inaudible]
leader, desperate to keep himself in power so he resigned. After his resignation the new Prime Minister then came out with a series of statements to say ‘We’ll not interfere with the judiciary’, ‘There will be separation of powers’, etcetera. So finally, he achieved somewhat of a compromise, which was unprecedented in law because in any criminal charge, it’s got to be based purely on the facts, and the law, not intimidation by the White House, or any seemingly so. You would understand this better. I’m not suggesting only in Malaysia but sometimes in even the so-called Western, more sophisticated-seeming rule of law, you can still find some form of interference. In this case what happened was they persuaded the Federal court to suggest that ‘Well, we do believe Anwar may be a bit guilty but there’s no clear evidence and therefore his appeal is accepted’. So he was acquitted and was set free.
[12:37:26.23]
JA:
So you were acquitted of sodomy?
[12:37:29.07]
AI:
Yes. But the corruption charge initially… it was interesting because there was nothing, no renumerations, no money or land transactions at all – I mean, I was Minister of Finance, the only charge was that. I then spoke to the Police Chief after the scurrilous attacks against me and he came to court and said ‘Well, I would lie if I’m instructed to do so’, you see – and still the court accepted his version of the story. I mean, I don’t think I need to convince you about the state of the judiciary in Malaysia…
JA:
Yeah. Yeah.
AI:
…but then I was acquitted, and again a new charge recently, and this was…
[12:38:11.00]
JA:
So you were… you were acquitted 2004? And…
[12:38:12.16]
AI:
Yes.
[12:38:14.08]
JA:
Yup, and then you’re out and the ruling party is worried that you are going to enter into politics and there’s very careful manoeuvres to try and stop you re-entering politics. So, can you speak a little bit about this period of time between 2004 and 2008 when you successfully re-entered politics?
[12:38:40.10]
AI:
So, 2004 after I was released then I went as a visiting… on short term as a visiting Fellow at St Antony’s, Oxford…
[12:38:47.14]
JA:
What did you… before we get to that, what did you do the moment you were released? Did your family pick you up? What happened?
[12:38:57.10]
AI:
When I was released… I mean, of course, it was a pleasant surprise. Some tend to believe that something… some positive change is taking place, because they can see the signal in the Prime Minister’s comments, which also show that the judiciary’s not independent…
[audio lost]
JA:
We’ve just lost you for a second, Anwar. Let me… No, I can’t… I can’t… can’t see you. It’s breaking down a bit. Let’s hope it comes back again. Let me just… let me call you back and maybe we’ll get a faster circuit.
AI:
Ok, thank you.
[off camera chat]
[12:43:43.03]
JA:
I know you said that I have you for as long as I want but do we have you for another hour?
[12:43:53.24]
AI:
Yeah, probably 45 minutes because the lecture is about one hour [discusses with his crew]
.
[12:44:06.22]
JA:
Alright, ok, that’s fine, that’s fine.
[12:44:08.22]
AI:
Priority for Julian Assange, you know – not always can get you. No, no, I was really looking forward to seeing you when I… really, because there was a meeting with Al Gore in San Francisco so I thought I should stop over for two days, and the only purpose, of course, was my… to see my daughter who’s doing mathematics at Kings College and also to see you, and there’s no other programme. Yeah.
[12:44:33.04]
JA:
Excellent. You remember us… remember the last time I saw you in this crazy thing in Oslo? So strange all that… and when Medvedev and his two hundred and fifty goons walked into that hotel, that was… very strange. Anyway, let’s speak… we were just speaking about how you left prison. So, what was the first thing you did? I mean, did your family take you back? Your first day out of custody for such a long time.
[12:45:09.11]
AI:
We wanted just to have a few hours with the family, so what Azizah’s plan was to whisk me off quickly to my father’s residence about an hour away from Kuala Lumpur and then spend just some time with him. I lost my mum when she was in… when I was in prison, so I went to see him and to spend a bit of time with the family and, of course, after 45 minutes they have phoned people – I went back to a huge reception. But Azizah was… is an Irish/Dublin trained ophthalmologist – so, you know, very tough, very conservative when it comes to treatment – so she said ‘No, the priority is to go immediately to Dr Hoogland, Alpha Clinic, Munich for immediate surgery’, so we plan and the following day we got on the phone to the doctor and we left for Munich for back surgery and this is [inaudible]
…
[12:46:17.24]
JA:
And this is related to the injury you suffered, or something else?
[12:46:24.13]
AI:
Yeah, the assault when I was in prison, the first night in the lock-up under police custody and what was badly bruised was the face and the eye and the black eye incident…
[12:46:36.22]
JA:
I remember. I remember seeing the photos.
[12:46:39.07]
AI:
But then, what was not known even to me at that time was the extent of the injury to the back. So, after the suggested recuperate I came back and there was a huge reception in Malaysia, Indonesia, then we had a note from Mandela, who invited the family to visit him, so we went to Johannesburg to see Mandela, then Cape Town and back again. So I was… immediately afterwards we decided therefore that I needed to spend some time with the family so we did…
[12:47:18.10]
JA:
And did you find it… you know, this immediately getting out and you report you were rushed off to go into another prison, which is hospital, but… did you find it – being liberated – to be overwhelming to your senses? Was it too much, or did you feel like you had such an amount of energy stored up from these years that you wanted to display it and to socialise and to sort of…?
[12:47:48.12]
AI:
So many things you want to do. You want to eat and, you know… You know in Australia you find this… this king fruit, durian, which I had not tasted for a long time. It’s an awful smell to most Europeans.
[12:48:02.12]
JA:
Yeah, it’s banned in Malaysian airport – Singapore airport, Singapore airport, it’s banned.
[12:48:09.03]
AI:
Yes. I mean, from most hotels here, who banned too because it gives such a smell. And also meet so many friends and so many things you want to say… to tell, but at the same time those outside would like to report you. You will have to spend hours talking about what’s happening, the political situation, etcetera. So we decided, the family and Azizah, you take off for a while and we went to St Antony’s, Oxford as visiting Fellow for some time but then when I got this offer at Georgetown University as a visiting professor, which of course is more lucrative, and my… my daughter and son were studying there, my eldest daughter’s doing Masters at John Hopkins, so we thought therefore it’s better to continue…
[12:48:57.20]
JA:
So you felt when you first got out that Malaysia was too dangerous for you? I mean, you left Malaysia and you spent time at John Hopkins and in England, and then something must have changed, you must have felt that the time was right to return?
[12:49:20.17]
AI:
Yeah. No, I did return, Julian, from time to time, every month or every other month. Every time there’s an opportunity.
[12:49:26.08]
JA:
But to live there… but to fully integrate yourself back into Malaysian political life?
[12:49:32.12]
AI:
But I took time… a lot of time because I love speaking engagements, you know, either in the Middle East or in Turkey or in Hong Kong, so you know, why should you come back home just to be in touch? But finally… And prior to that, as you know, Turkey initiated this and lobbied and was trying to persuade me to enter international arena, the United Nations, etcetera, which I politely declined because I thought ‘I’m a village guy’, and I thought ‘You know, I owe it to the Malaysians – in the worst of times, they were there in support’. So I decided to go back by end of 2006/7 because we thought that elections would be called by the end of 2007 at the earliest. That was the primary reason because I think that the government, with different leadership, remained entrenched with this old oppressive system, with draconian laws, no free media and endemic corruption. I think that was the reason that we then decided we should go back full-time to do this in politics.
[12:50:50.07]
JA:
So, you come back into Malaysia and in the lead up to 2008, an extraordinary year in Malaysian politics, you try and get into… you try and get elected to parliament. What happens during that year, and how can you describe what happens to yourself with this new attack on you and this remarkable transition in Malaysian politics from the government having nearly 80 per cent of the vote to 54 per cent?
[12:51:26.22]
AI:
Well, we went… we worked very hard, you know. We don’t have any access to the media – the entire media was groomed to support the ruling party. Even today as leader of the opposition, I don’t have even one minute of air-time – that’s why I decided to… accepted your invitation. You don’t have any – and not only that, you have daily attacks. They could use any statement that you are, you know, ‘sexual pervert’… and now ‘agent of Israel’ and then you’re a supporter of al-Qaeda and America and Egypt, and every other night there would be a new attack – vicious – against you but still, as I said, I still trust the wisdom of the people. Can you imagine? Not a minute of air-time and you could still win five states, including Kuala Lumpur. We won 10 out of 11 parliamentary seats, and so I believe we are ripe for some sort of Malaysian Spring, through the electoral process. But we worked very hard, as you said, in 2007/2008, and we did work harder among the ethnic minorities because we thought that from ’99 to 2004 they would be apprehensive because the policies… they thought it is a better… struggle among the Malay leaders supporting the same policies, and I said to the contrary, we are a reform party, committed to a reform agenda. Some of the obsolete policies, race-based, has to change with the times, andwe were very successful in… at least in our interaction with the ethnic minorities, Chinese and Indians in particular, and they did show a very impressive level of support in 2008. Since then, we are continuing, including the heartland in Sabah, in Sarawak, where we lost very badly.
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