Author Topic: Fallujah Atrocity  (Read 4091 times)

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julia

  • Guest
Fallujah Atrocity
« on: March 04, 2011, 20:41:52 PM »
Very interesting thread from the FB discussion board. Fee free to catch up. I posted it all , fluff included  :D

1ST PAGE


Andrew
In 2004, there were two battles of Fallujah. The first one took place in April of that year. The second and much more bloody one, took place in November and December. In both instances, there was massive Iraqi civilian casualties. And, in the latter November battle, the Armed forces of the USA deliberately used a range of banned chemical weapons indiscriminately against all Iraqis who remained in that city. In short, what took place, in both battles was a war crime.

To date, the USA Armed forces have never released any information regarding civilian deaths incurred during these two battles of Fallujah. However we do know that the USA military surrounded the city and shot indiscriminately at anyone who lived there.
Most of the city's infrastructure and homes were flattened. Fallujah's major hospital was targeted first and destroyed.

Furthermore, while eradicating the Fallujah resistance, the USA military, according to an Independent Italian medical team (link is below) used internationally banned weapons such as Nerve gas, Mustard gas, Napalm, and White phosphorous. Incidentally, this same medical team came back to Fallujah in 2009 and 2010 and reported that the rate of cancers of all types in Fallujah was higher than those found in Hiroshima and Nagasaki in the aftermath of the atomic bombings of 1945!

Moreover, thanks to Wikileaks and other investigative journalist agencies, we now know that then President Bush, prior to the Fallujah battles, had been advised by his attorney general, Gonzales, to rescind the Geneva conventions in order to preclude him from facing any future prosecution under the 1996 Internationally recognized War Crimes Act. To date, not a single member of the Bush administration has been arraigned in court for breaking the Geneva convention. It is long overdue in my view.

http://www.countercurrents.org/adriaensens220910.htm
http://www.tomdispatch.com/post/73753/
WikiLeaks Iraq War Logs: Torture, civilian death toll revealed in latest leak
Noam Chomsky on the WikiLeaks and Coverage
http://www.chris-floyd.com/fallujah/#video
http://bellaciao.org/en/article.php3?id_article=5430
http://www.brussellstribunal.org/Reflections_On_Fallujah.htm
http://www.globalpolicy.org/component/content/article/168/36338.html
about 2 months ago
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Julia
OUTRAGEOUS
about 2 months ago
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Yvonne
@Andrew

Thanks Andrew, lots too look into, Thank you

Is there any information as to what steps are involved in rescinding the convention? Would this be permanent?
about 2 months ago
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Kerstin
hi andrew, just to let you know, i am going to give you an answer to the question you asked me in a quite moment. thanks for the post on thies suject.

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Paul
Kerstin, you are playing such a huge part in getting the message across to the people, i thank you and look forward to your posts.
about 2 months ago
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Andrew
@Yvonne
It is my understanding that the Bush Presidency's actions are now permanent. What is fascinating and demonstrative to me is that this same President announced on January 11, 2002, that the USA will no longer abide by the 1949 Geneva Conventions. A full year before the Iraq invasion, and two years before the twin battles of Fallujah. A nagging question is, did these guys have something in mind when they did this in early 2002? The obvious answer is yes, because the Afghan Prisoners coming back from the USA 2001 invasion of Afghanistan were to be classed as "non legal combatants."

However, in my view, this is a smokescreen. What was really obtained through this blatant declaration of USA lawlessness was a carte blanche to do whatever the hell they wanted in the planned assault on Iraq.


http://baltimorechronicle.com/geneva_feb02.shtml
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/apr/19/guantanamo.usa
http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2004/apr/26/iraq.internationalaidanddevelopment
http://www.icrc.org/eng/resources/documents/misc/5zmgf9.htm
about 2 months ago
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Andrew
@Kerstin
Ok. No problem. I look forward to your reply. BTW, I agree with Paul Thomas. You do play a huge part in getting the message out. Thank you!
about 2 months ago
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Kerstin
thank you paul and andrew, i am glad you enjoy my post contributions ..
about 2 months ago
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Colin
I would LOVE IT if the world could prosecute the Bush Gang... doubt it though...
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Richard
Andrew,

Sounds horrible. Unfortunately, NONE of your claims are true.

"In both instances, there was massive Iraqi civilian casualties. And, in the latter November battle, the Armed forces of the USA deliberately used a range of banned chemical weapons indiscriminately against all Iraqis who remained in that city. In short, what took place, in both battles was a war crime."

There were no massive civilian casualties in either battle.

The US DID NOT use "banned chemical weapons."

In fact, the Fallujah Hospital just west of the city was rocketed by insurgents. The US did not target the hospital, they defended it.

The US DID NOT use "Nerve gas, Mustard gas, Napalm," and, as for White phosphorous, it was used in SMOKE rounds and left a small residue, causing less pollution than laundry detergent or fertilizer.

And, ALL of the sources you cite are suspect - none have based their claims in fact.

I challenge you to provide a single piece of evidence to support your slanderous claims.

To all the readers of this post, please investigate these claims on your own. DO NOT take my word or believe these claims without digging for the truth. Carefully read the claims at the links Andrew provided and see for yourself that the claims are based on opinions, not facts.

I spent three years of my life researching and interviewing nearly 200 participants of the battle. I can tell you that these claims are false.

Richard S. Lowry
author of: New Dawn
about 2 months ago
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Andrew
@Richard
I appreciate the time and patience it has taken for you to compose your rebuttal. Thank you for that.

Now to your arguments: Naturally, I disagree with you.

You claim that my source materials are false. This is a strange claim. Especially since most of my points have been verified by "independent" journalists (not embeds) who have managed to get access to the city of Fallujah. See Democracy Now and below links for more on this.

Second, your claim about Fallujah Hospital being rocketed by Iraqi insurgents is a wild fiction, used as a rationale to justify the military assault against a medical complex. It comes straight from the Pentagon "Perception Management" public relations handbook of double speak. And was used, at the time of the assault, by the Pentagon to shut down this main place where besieged Iraqis could find some refuge. Why, I ask you, would Fallujah defenders target the very place where their own wounded were going to find medical attention? It sounds ridiculous and is a fiction that you have repeated here in this forum.

Third, you claim that my sources are suspect. This is a rich claim especially coming from an individual who relies on Fox and NBC (known Corporate media liars) for his news. (Yes, I did take the liberty to see where you are coming from Mr. Lowry).


Now, as to providing "firm" evidence of my claims. I can do that. In addition, so can many others, despite the attempted USA independent media blackout of that city during these battles. However, I suspect that even if I got God almighty himself to come down and back me up in this, you'd still cling onto your parroted jingoistic views. But I'll give some extra links anyway below in the hope (however vain) that you may start to think independently a bit more.

And finally, to claim, as you have done, in your FB page and here, that you've spent two years "researching" these battles by interviewing over 200 participants does suggest that you are nothing more than a puffed up hagiographer. Were any of these participants Iraqi by the way? I hope so for your own book's sake. After all, we have to keep things fair and balanced you know!

Andrew B.

Some more select links and suggested books:

http://www.democracynow.org/2006/1/25/exclusive_fallujah_the_real_story_documentary
Dahr Jamail on what happened in Fallujah: US War Crimes
http://www.johnpilger.com/articles/iraq-the-unthinkable-becomes-normal
Chomsky on Cancer rates in Fallujah beyond Hiroshima - Depleted Uranium)
http://dahrjamailiraq.com/dahr-discusses-fallujah-birth-defects-on-riz-khan-show

Books:
In the Name of Democracy: American War Crimes in Iraq and beyond by J. Brecher (2005).

Inside Fallujah: The Unembedded story by A. Mansour

And Lectures/Articles (reccommended for a more broader understanding of USA state terrorism):
Harold Pinter: Art, Truth and Politics (December 7, 2005)
Euphemism and American Violence by D. Bromwich, New York Review of Books, v. 55, #5, April 3, 2008.
Remember the Illegal destruction of Iraq? by G. Greenwald, published in Salon.com, January 29, 2010.
#
Colin
Democracy Now ! Now there is a reliable source... NOT

Howard Dean Loyalists who decided to make a career out of collecting contributions and spouting opinions on the web. ROFL
about 2 months ago
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Andrew
@Colin
Democracy Now's stories have been picked up (eventually) by other news agencies. Democracy Now is usually at the cutting edge in bringing stories to the light of day. MSM, on the other hand, are Corporate whores who just give you want their Corporate puppeteers want you to know.

As for Howard Dean loyalists: Are we living on the same planet?
about 2 months ago
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John
Richard Lowery, they do not let the fact get in the way of their blogger propaganda.
about 2 months ago
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Richard
Andrew,

I want to address each of your assertions, so this is going to take some time. Let's start with the Fallujah Hospital, west of the city. In November, Iraqi forces of 36 Commando and Marines of the 3rd LAR Battalion initiated the second attack on Fallujah by moving in to "secure" the hospital. The Iraqis entered the hospital and the Marines secured the perimeter. No one was killed in that night time operation. A few days later Major Ken Kassner returned to the hospital. Following is an excerpt from my book:

"Kassner helped three or four other soldiers and Marines carry Captain John Towle into the waiting casevac bird. Once the helicopter had lifted off Kassner and his men jumped back into their vehicles and headed for the Fallujah Hospital to see how Captain Collier was doing. Collier and his Iraqi Intervention Force soldiers had been providing security at the hospital compound since the beginning of the operation; Kassner visited frequently to check on them.
By the time Kassner arrived at the hospital it was after noon. An Iraqi government delegation, including the Iraqi Minister of Health, was conducting an independent assessment of the ability of the facility and staff to provide medical care to the civilian population. Kassner hadn’t been there long when the enemy attacked with several volleys of rockets.
As with most of their attacks, the enemy was relying on volume rather than accuracy of fire. Some of the rockets screamed past the hospital and exploded behind the compound, some hit to the left of the hospital, some in front. Kassner’s immediate concern was for the Iraqi VIPs inside the hospital. He and Lance Corporal Hutchinson raced out into the courtyard to try to get one of Pirak’s Bradley Fighting Vehicles that was dug in along the bank of the river several hundred meters away; Kassner wanted to load the Iraqi officials into the Bradley and evacuate them as quickly as possible.
As they were heading for the radios in their vehicle, the eighth or ninth rocket slammed into the hospital, blowing the glass out of the entrance. The deafening blast knocked Kassner to the ground. Kassner stood up, ears ringing, and ran back into the hospital, thinking that the hospital had suffered a direct hit.
As it turned out, the rocket had missed the entrance and exploded on the roof; no one inside had been injured. When Kassner entered the lobby one of the Iraqis standing in the hospital shouted at him, ran up, and pointed at his arm: Kassner’s right hand was bleeding badly, and his right sleeve was soaked in red. Kassner had taken shrapnel to his hand and arm.
Once Kassner realized that everyone in the hospital was safe, he turned to run back to his vehicle; he had to get the civilians out of the hospital compound before another rocket found them, and he had to find the source of the rocket fire. These tasks seemed much more important to him than taking care of his wound. But one of the men traveling with the Iraqi Minister of Health chased Kassner out the door and followed him to his vehicle. While Kassner was talking on the radio, the guy took some bandages out of Kassner’s first aid kit and started wrapping up his hand and arm.
Major Kassner’s focus, everyone’s focus, was to neutralize the enemy that was targeting them and to get the folks out who needed to leave. Kassner called in the Bradleys, loaded up the half-dozen VIPs, and had them driven away from the focus of the enemy’s rocket barrage. Whereupon Kassner again did not immediately seek medical attention; he simply returned to the battalion command post."

I personally interviewed Major Kassner and several Marines who verified this story. I also combed through official Marine Corps documents to validate this story.

The Marines did not destroy the hospital, they defended it!!

More to come.

about 2 months ago
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Richard
I have quoted my source and presented the story. What is the source of your claim?

"Second, your claim about Fallujah Hospital being rocketed by Iraqi insurgents is a wild fiction, used as a rationale to justify the military assault against a medical complex. "
about 2 months ago
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Richard
Next - "And was used, at the time of the assault, by the Pentagon to shut down this main place where besieged Iraqis could find some refuge." What besieged Iraqis are you speaking of? The entire city of Fallujah was evacuated prior to the November assault. Of 250,000 inhabitants, I was only able to find evidence of ~100 civilians that did not leave the city. Most left in town were insurgents.
about 2 months ago
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John
Prosecutions of the individuals involved was very vigorous.

However, Richard S. Lowery, the whole argument begs the question. The US is not guilty of a war crime unless they have a policy that sanctioned it. They did not. No such argument has been made nor will it because that did not happen. I would also argue the incident was not a war crime in regard to what the individuals did, but that is not necessary to the argument. They have to prove the US has a POLICY that authorizes war crimes.
about 2 months ago
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Richard
Next comment - "Third, you claim that my sources are suspect. This is a rich claim especially coming from an individual who relies on Fox and NBC (known Corporate media liars) for his news. (Yes, I did take the liberty to see where you are coming from Mr. Lowry). "

You attempt to see where I am coming from indicates your lack of attention to detail in your research. Not once, did I use a FoxNews or NBC source to tell the story of Fallujah. I conducted three years of intense research to tell the story. And, as I said before, I interviewed nearly 200 participants of the fight, men and women who were actually there. Many have since left the military and have no reason to lie.
about 2 months ago
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Richard
Ok, please provide me one single shred of evidence that the US used "banned" weapons in Fallujah - please be specific. You don't need to deflect this query with insults to me.

about 2 months ago
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Colin
Richard... this is not worth your time...
about 2 months ago
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Richard
Colin,

Yes, it is worth my time. Someone has to question these claims. Look at what Kerstin just wrote. She thinks Andrew is actually providing "facts and evidence."

Andrew,

Please provide a source for your claim that the US used napalm in Fallujah. I got some bad news for you. The US hasn't had Napalm in its arsenal since the early 90s.
about 2 months ago
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Kerstin
.
about 2 months ago
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Colin
Thats right Kerstin even though Andrew could not support his thread against a real rebuttal. you keep kissing his wounds
about 2 months ago
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John
Richard S. Lowery, this is an anti-US group who worships Assange and the first church of WikiLeaks. Your favorite saint must be Saint Jude. ;)

Don't let them get to you.
about 2 months ago
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Colin
Thats right Kerstin even though Andrew could not support his thread against a real rebuttal. you keep kissing his wounds..
about 2 months ago
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Brian
Tick tock,f tick tock,v tick tock , tick
about 2 months ago
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Kerstin
andrew, i enjoyed reading your initial and rebuttal post, very informative
remember - facts & evidence can't be refuted, don't let yourself
get sidetracked. keep it comming :)
about 2 months ago
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Colin
BOOM !~
about 2 months ago
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Richard
I am simply trying to set the record straight. If no one challenges people like Andrew, his rantings will spread and be believed - re: Kerstin's post.

I am only asking Andrew's readers to think for themselves and carefully read the articles Andrew has linked to. Please note that they are filled with accusations and innuendo, but they all have one thing in common. They cannot substantiate their claims.
about 2 months ago


julia

  • Guest
Re: Fallujah Atrocity
« Reply #1 on: March 04, 2011, 20:47:08 PM »
2nd PAGE
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Kerstin
>>I am simply trying to set the record straight.<<

LOL
about 2 months ago
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Colin
He did not answer you in an hour after his first half brained attempt...

But Kerstin Kept kissing him even though he is three times her age ...
about 2 months ago
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Colin
Kerstin is not to blame... she is a Croat Victim of US attrocities in Yugoslavia when the US was handing out Radioactive Condoms.
This can be verified at her own Blog.
about 2 months ago
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Colin
Ouch.. another country's illiterate heard from...
about 2 months ago
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Yvonne
@Richard

MK77 bombs - some type of Naplam used no?

This from Adam Ingram U.K. defense minster

http://www.counterpunch.org/brown06172005.html
about 2 months ago
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Brian
@ Richard. You have to excuse the humour of some of us but obviously some of us are following this debate and you have left the ball in Andrew's court ,I am sure we will all make our own conclusions
about 2 months ago
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Manuel
It seams more phosphoric type.
about 2 months ago
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Colin
Out of bounds Magazine?? Come on Yvonne..
about 2 months ago
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Manuel
Topic Reloaded

Andrew Brown
In 2004, there were two battles of Fallujah. The first one took place in April of that year. The second and much more bloody one, took place in November and December. In both instances, there was massive Iraqi civilian casualties. And, in the latter November battle, the Armed forces of the USA deliberately used a range of banned chemical weapons indiscriminately against all Iraqis who remained in that city. In short, what took place, in both battles was a war crime.

To date, the USA Armed forces have never released any information regarding civilian deaths incurred during these two battles of Fallujah. However we do know that the USA military surrounded the city and shot indiscriminately at anyone who lived there.
Most of the city's infrastructure and homes were flattened. Fallujah's major hospital was targeted first and destroyed.

Furthermore, while eradicating the Fallujah resistance, the USA military, according to an Independent Italian medical team (link is below) used internationally banned weapons such as Nerve gas, Mustard gas, Napalm, and White phosphorous. Incidentally, this same medical team came back to Fallujah in 2009 and 2010 and reported that the rate of cancers of all types in Fallujah was higher than those found in Hiroshima and Nagasaki in the aftermath of the atomic bombings of 1945!

Moreover, thanks to Wikileaks and other investigative journalist agencies, we now know that then President Bush, prior to the Fallujah battles, had been advised by his attorney general, Gonzales, to rescind the Geneva conventions in order to preclude him from facing any future prosecution under the 1996 Internationally recognized War Crimes Act. To date, not a single member of the Bush administration has been arraigned in court for breaking the Geneva convention. It is long overdue in my view.

http://www.countercurrents.org/adriaensens220910.htm
http://www.tomdispatch.com/post/73753/
WikiLeaks Iraq War Logs: Torture, civilian death toll revealed in latest leak
Noam Chomsky on the WikiLeaks and Coverage
http://www.chris-floyd.com/fallujah/#video
http://bellaciao.org/en/article.php3?id_article=5430
http://www.brussellstribunal.org/Reflections_On_Fallujah.htm
http://www.globalpolicy.org/component/content/article/168/36338.html
há 16 horas · Denunciar
about 2 months ago
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Colin
that's funny ... even when someone does respect your little groups foolish ideas enough to spend the time to challenge them with real evidence... you will just repost the bullcrap without the challenging evidence..

WHAT A JOKE. this topic and all its supporters are,,,
about 2 months ago
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Andrew
@Richard
Thank you again for your thoughtful reply to my rebuttal. Once more, I must beg to disagree with you.

Now to your question which keeps on recurring: Namely where is the evidence of my claims that Napalm and White Phosphorous were used in the 2004 battles of Fallujah?
How about viewing and reading the following links for some elaboration here:

1) The White Death of Fallujah http://www.counterpunch.org/floyd12172005.html
2) Sorry, but sometimes we have to use White Phosphorous
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-stories/2005/11/24/sorry-but-sometimes-we-have-to-use-white-phosphorus-115875-16406977/
3) Fallujah: The hidden massacre Fallujah: The Hidden Massacre | Free Video Clips | SPIKE
4) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallujah,_The_Hidden_Massacre
5) http://www.albasrah.net/warcrimes.htm

Now, after you have digested these, perhaps you can get some idea of where I am coming from here? And thus we can proceed with more rational debate about these battles?

As for your other point about "setting the record straight:" Excuse me, but has not your beloved Pentagon and MSM already done a stellar job of disinformation on that score? It is precisely why I chose to submit this challenge to this Falluja Battle official USA narrative. My arguments may upset you. Even make you feel uncomfortable with yourself and all that you believe in. Well tough! Many Iraqi people were killed for no reason other than Bush and company wanting revenge for the murder of several Blackwater Inc. employees. You may choose to disagree with that statement, but that is how I see it.


Now to your point about the "securing" of the Fallujah hospital. If the USA did not deliberately assault the hospital during the battles, as you claim, then why did they (USA Pentagon) agree to rebuild it a year after the destruction? It does strike me as a little odd. Also, it must be remembered, that it was common practice, at the time, for the USA military to pay "compensation" money to Iraqi families for Iraqis killed in USA attacks. Logically then, it makes sense that as a gesture of recompense for what took place in the battles, that the USA military would also offer to rebuild the hospital that was it first attacked. Thank you btw, for the blow by blow, details of what certain soldiers did at this battle. It, of course, told me absolutely nothing that I did not already know.


Now for my sources on the above Fallujah hospital point:
1) US Strikes Raze Fallujah Hospital http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/3988433.stm
2) Iraqi civilian suffering in the Fallujah battle http://www.cdi.org/program/issue/document.cfm?DocumentID=2762&IssueID=62&StartRow=1&ListRows=10&appendURL&Orderby=DateLastUpdated&ProgramID=69&issueID=62
3) Early Target of Offensive is a Hospital http://www.nytimes.com/2004/11/08/international/middleeast/08hospital.html
4) http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=5289
5) Fallujah: A disgrace for the USA and and Eternal Curse on Humanity
http://www.truth-out.org/fallujah-a-disgrace-usa-eternal-curse-humanity64094

Moving onto a vital segment: As I have already stated earlier in this thread, I suspect that no matter what evidence I brought to it, you would probably poo poo it simply because it spoils your world view. I am a man of the left. And you, obviously, are a man of the right. Nothing wrong there. That is how the world is. We just see reality through different prisms. In regards to Iraq: I see war crimes. You, on the other hand, see a USA military honorably carrying out a mission that was handed to it. This is our crucial difference. In other words, you prefer illusions, and I like to question reality.


And finally, before I forget, does it not strike you, a self proclaimed military history buff, as a little strange that the USA had to destroy Fallujah in order to save it for Democracy? Can't you see the parallels to an earlier war (Vietnam) where the same official USA rationale was repeatedly used?

BTW, here is another book I suggest you become familiar with as to why there were two battles of Fallujah. "Blackwater: Rise of the World's most powerful mercenary army" by J. Scahill.

Till later!

about 2 months ago
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Brian
A suivre
about 2 months ago
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Richard
Yvonne,

No NAPALM in MK 77 bombs, and, MK77 bombs were not used in Fallujah
about 2 months ago
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Richard
Andrew,

I asked you to provide substantiation for the use of Napalm - which you claimed. I could have also asked you to justify your claim of the use of mustard gas. But, lets get back to the napalm thing. You came back with nothing to support your napalm claim but you deftly shifted the conversation to white phosphorous.

Yes, the US used WP in Fallujah. Do you know how it was used? It was used in artillery rounds that laid down smoke screens. IT WAS NOT USED to burn people. It produced lots of smoke. The burning balls actually landed on Marine units and no one was hurt. I know that there are many articles that claim that Iraqis were burned to death. Photos in these articles show bloated bodies. I have spoken to doctors and they have all said that these bodies were in the condition they were because of days of exposure to the sun, not burns.
And, again, your sources have no credibility.

Back to the hospital. I told you, the insurgents rocketed the hospital and we rebuilt it after they destroyed it.

As to your ignorant deduction as to why we "destroyed most of the city: American forces encountered thousand of armed insurgents when they rolled into the city. At first, the enemy tried to stand toe to toe with the Americans but soon realized that they were outgunned. So, the insurgents went to ground. They barricaded themselves inside mosques, schools, and homes. And, they waited to kill the first American who crossed the darkened threshold.

The first American rule of engagement for Fallujah was to not fire until fired upon. Many, many American soldiers, sailors and Marines died in those darkened doorways, hesitating to insure they did not shoot civilians, proven by the lack of civilian casualties.

Even after they were surrounded, the enemy fighters refused to surrender and the American forces were forced to level these homes.

As for the major mosques in the city, they were crammed full, floor to ceiling, with guns, ammunition and explosives. The American forces, at their own peril, removed all these munitions so as not to destroy the mosques. However, when bombs and booby traps were found in homes, they blew the entire building. And, they found many, many booby-trapped homes.

As for your opinion of my ability to accept evidence, just provide one single issue we have discussed and give me a reference to a credible source. I am simple minded and I cannot read through pages and pages of the links you have provided.

One issue.

Cite one reference to your claim.

I am baffled by your attitude. I am not with the MSM. I actually took the time to independently research the Fallujah fight. I am providing you all with an independent look. I have no agenda other than making sure that the world gets the real story. My books are real. I know because I tell the stories of the men and women who were there. And, before you ask, I tell the American stories because I have no access to the Iraqi side. I believe the stories I have been told and have repeated in my books, not because I am gullible, but because I have taken the time to validate eyewitness accounts through research and other interviews.

What have you done other than read the propaganda presented to you on the internet? Have you spoken with ANYONE who was there? Have you conducted ANY independent research? I think not.

about 2 months ago
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Ché
When someone posts something like this, and his favourites on tv include fox news, then I'm amused to say the least. HAHAHA, Richard, your a joke. ' I tell the American stories because I have no access to the Iraqi side'. Maybe do some research? What a joker! Why don't you watch some real news? http://www.therealnews.com/t2/
about 2 months ago
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Julia
@Andrew:

Andrew,

I was just watching Chomsky's comments on some leaks.. regarding Iran's nuclear weapons.. well this may seem unrelated to this post but what Chomsky's remarks reveal is that for the arab world , the major threat is Israel and the USA, not Iran.. This is reveled in a pole on arab population not governments, I can't get the source name as Chomsky's speech is very soft.. it's about minute 7.41 here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z5eBc5GL6dA&feature=player_embedded#!

Chomsky says that when the USA talks about the arab world, they are talking about the dictators, not the population..

.. and this is where my remark comes..

Why does USA gov disregard arab population?

.. to the point of destruction.. mutilation.. murder.. torture..

Why?

They are not dictators!! they are the victims of the dictators !!

Do they deserve to be punished twice?

..

Which brings me to the next question?

Is the USA government racist?

..

Do they not consider arab population to be human beings as equal as any American? With the same human rights?

..

This reminds me of some tragic events that occurred not long ago in Germany.

..

Oh not wait.. it's not same , right?

..
about 2 months ago
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Manuel
Richard S. Lowry

First of all I need you to forguive me for my english writing.

To the topic. I read all the posts you made and the ones of Andrew carefuly and I think that none have anithing that profs anything.

I don't like politics, I don't like wars and I don't like lots of similar things and when I try to analize somthing I normaly try to find the much data I can before making any statement.

I have no previledged information on the facts in the topic and I haven't be in the situations that are in discussion. So, the only thing that I can analize is both of the statements from you and Andrew.

Books, opinions and alike are not enough to prove anything. You are an educated person and you know that almost those things almost times are deturpated, intetionaly or not.
As you know, The spanish (only as one example) in their epic descovers just aniquilated the Inca civilization. If you see what they tell in the story they teach you will laught. These kind of things happens all aroud the world and in all countrys. In mine too.

The point is, that I could't see nor in your statements nor in Andrews statements any single fact that can be considered prof.

The only things bouth of you have is a hand of opinions from others to back up what you stand for.

I would (if I may) give the advise to both to try to have some real information before you stand for a position otherwise the only thing you can say is "I believe or I think".
about 2 months ago
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Manuel
And of corse. You can't just have the one way story.
about 2 months ago
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Richard
Manual,

Thank you for the thoughtful post. In America, the accused is innocent until proven guilty. It is Andrew who is making the accusations. I cannot prove a negative. I can only tell you what I know to be true through three years of independent research.

I am not asking anyone to believe my accounts, I am asking you all to read the articles that Andrew cited carefully and decide for yourself what is true.

about 2 months ago
#
Manuel
Richard, as I said I can't say nothing about the specific situations we ar talking about, but you must agree with me in one or tow point.
In the last years, the USA governement has been almost ruled by the lobis. I supose you saw the video colateral murderer posted by wikileaks. You don't have, as you recognized the knewlage from the other side what is as important as the american side. And one of the things that I'm sure you agree is the fact that all wars are always becouse of mony, of power and supremacy.
Not the American soldiers are murderers. Almost of them don't want to go the war but they are forced to. And a war is always a bloody thing with bloody actuations. I'm sure some soldiers did the best they could but there are always the others.
With all this in mind and the all lot of info that we have it's easy admit that wepens like those refered where used.
If we want to know the truth we have first to force thw ones whon are the liers, the ones who win mony withe the lifes of people that only whant to live in peace and with dignity, whatever religion, whatever color, or whatever whatever.
There other ways to force countrys to have a decent beahaveour without killing people.
And as you probably understand , the present state of the civiliztion just can't stand, We need to do something right for a change. Let's hope that our principal problem, I'm speaking about what we have been doing to our home earth, give us time to stop all this bloody wrong things that we do.
about 2 months ago
#
Richard
Manual,

I agree with you that the world needs to change. The difference between Andrew and me is that I believe that the US is working to make the World a better place. Did you read USA Today's frontpage article today that 21,000 Iraqis have died in the past five years-killed by IEDs.

One Marine who was in Anbar Province in 2006 told me that an Iraqi came up to him and said that they did not want the Americans there and he said to the Iraqi. "Quit shooting at us and we will leave. The Iraqis in Anbar Province quit shooting and the Marines left.

I pray for a better world, but I also pray for the truth to be told.

The only reason we went into Fallujah was to clear out an insurgent stronghold that was spreading murder, torture and terror. We could have easily picked up and left Iraq after capturing Saddam, but we didn't. We stayed to help restore order and to give the people of Iraq a chance for a better life-free of oppression.

Just heard on the news that the Iraqi government is asking us to stay, possibly ten more years.
about 2 months ago
#
Manuel
Richard,
Americans did good things and did bad thins as all the other conutrys in the world when they could. I am not sayin that Americans don't need to do some things Europe and the UN also have militar interventions. I saw photographs of soldiers from United Nations burning sudanese kinds and I saw arab wemens tortured from both sides.
There are ways and ways to di things. And for what I see and for what I ear it seams like in this precise moment America is not acting in the good way. Am I wrong? Am I right? I don't know. I have no enough information. But My personal opinion at this point is that are lots of people in the world that are doing the very wroung things and the only possible way to change things is to force the ones who are i n charge. I remember that JF Kennedy did an incridible work avoiding the nuclear war and not only. And the promem is that if we don't do nothing quickly it would be to late. Just look at Australia, Pakistan, Europe, The bees, The acid rain, the ozone and ... and.....
about 2 months ago



julia

  • Guest
Re: Fallujah Atrocity
« Reply #2 on: March 04, 2011, 21:00:23 PM »
#

2nd page continued
Richard
The United States sent their sons and daughters to protect England and France in WWI and WWII. The United States sent their sons and daughters to South Korea to protect the Koreans from wanton aggression. The United States tried to help the people of Vietnam and then sent troops to Lebanon to try to end a civil war. They liberated the people of Kuwait and Kosovo (both Muslim nations by the way). And, they are trying to bring a better life to the people of Iraq and Afghanistan.

Some will point out isolated incidents of American soldiers acting badly, but our military is made up of volunteers from the streets of America. We always try to do the right thing and the world would be a far worse place if we decided to bring all our troops home. Frankly, when I encounter opinions like I find on this site, I am inclined to think that bringing all our guys home might be a good idea.
about 2 months ago
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Manuel
Sorry Richard, is that an answer to my last post?
about 2 months ago
#
Richard
yes. We are the good guys
about 2 months ago
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Manuel
Richard, Game over. If you think you are God and have the universal truth. Be it. It's your bloody problem.
about 2 months ago
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Richard
Wow. Your English suddenly became quite good. Have a nice day.
about 2 months ago
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Manuel
The same for you God.
about 2 months ago
#
Richard
http://www.iraq-businessnews.com/tag/nasiriyah/
about 2 months ago
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Manuel
http://video.ilsole24ore.com/SoleOnLine4/Video/Mondo/2010/wikileaks-americani-iraq/wikileaks-americani-iraq.php
about 2 months ago


julia

  • Guest
Re: Fallujah Atrocity
« Reply #3 on: March 04, 2011, 21:01:51 PM »
3RD PAGE

#
Julia
@Mauel:
No se como puedes mantener una conversacion con este tipo de chicharellos.. yo ya tengo zero tolerancia.. es una pena porque paran el flujo de la conversacion y aburren a la gente. Este tema tan serio y interesante ha sido totalmente destruido. tu crees que es un troll pagadao?
about 2 months ago
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Manuel
Si haces lo mismo que ellos que diferencia hay? Todos decimos que lo que hacemos es con la mejor intención. Sólo que algunos estamos equivocados.
about 2 months ago
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Julia
No se, digo..con alguna gente es imposible hablar. pero admiro tu perseverancia y educacion Manuel, claro que no puedes ponerte a su nivel porque acabas siendo como ellos.. es dificil por esto
about 2 months ago
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Manuel
Tanpoco es asi vale. Hay veces que tambiém salto. Sólo que ninguno de estos tiene inteligencia suficiente para eso.lol
about 2 months ago
#
Julia
LOL!!

now let' s get this thread back on topic, shall we?
about 2 months ago
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Manuel
Julia, I'm sorry but as I said to God I haven't enough data to speak abou the situations on the topic. Whatever I could say is that I don't know but I tend to believe that lots of wroung things have been done. And the Americans are not the only ones. What can I say more?
about 2 months ago
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Manuel
Buy the way, your photo is very agressive, don't you think so?
about 2 months ago
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Julia
Nothing else Manuel. It is what needs to be said. I need to read more articles about it as well.. so that I know the details. I will get back afterwards. Thank you for defending the truth.
about 2 months ago
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Julia
@Manuel: which one? Which photo?
about 2 months ago
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Manuel
I'm just an utopic guy thar stil believes in utopy. To late for change.
about 2 months ago
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Manuel
That guy in the piano. It seams like he is fighting.
about 2 months ago
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Yvonne
@Richard, thanks.

For anyone interested I found a site that gives information about this bomb (and other bombs as well). it refutes the claim that the MK77s used, contained Napalm.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/mk77.htm

@Andrew

The question I now have is: were the doctors sufficiently experienced to tell the difference between the effects of Napalm and other incendiaries?

@Colin

Be happy I didn't use Wikepedia
about 2 months ago
#
Manuel
That's the way to do it. Pick info until we can have a possibility to get the real truth. Great, Yvonne. It's only a pitie that noone can tell me the diference of die burning with napalm and dye burning with querosene or gasoline. Any one knows?
about 2 months ago
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Julia
@Yvonne:

Why do you question the information given by Andrew? I wouldn't loose time checking into it. It is just an effort of a troll to destroy this thread topic, to slow it down, to remove its validity. It's like you accuse someone of something they will say you are a liar. I will not loose more time with these kinds of people. I am sorry. Andrew has provided multiple sources that point to the same facts. I will not doubt them.
about 2 months ago
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Manuel
Julia, easy. It's not a question of believe or not. It's a question to get the truth without any reasonable doubt. And The info about the bombs don't prove nothing at all. Those bombs can use anythig we put inside. Including chocolate. Any way, there is no big diference between napalm and the mixture that can be made with other products. Only for info, with only one litle reptil you can murdere all the people in a bif city in less than 24 h.
It's not the way you kill. It's just kill.
about 2 months ago
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Manuel
Another thing I learned it's that with lies you can never buit a truth. You can convince the others but it will still a lie. And the most important is that the many lies you put in the place the more chences to get the truth.
about 2 months ago
#
Julia
Manuel, the docotrs say it is phosphorus what caused the malformations and cancer to the children..They also say they have been silenced.. what more proof do we need?

Here's a short doco:

WikiLeaks Iraq War Logs: Torture, civilian death toll revealed in latest leak

btw, the pic is Richter a victim of the legacies of war (his father was murdered), censorship and repression in the Soviet Union..and one of the best pianists of the 20th century:
Schubert Sonata in Bb II Andante sostenuto
about 2 months ago
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Manuel
Julia, I don't need any prof. I'm just fighting the lies that I think that are lies, and remember I, myself, have no information to state anything. I'm just showing to others, or at least triyng, that to get the truth they have to be honest with themselves and don't accept any kind of info that comes around the net or the news papers or in a public way. It's never enought and it's almost times inacurate. People are not that stupid and if you can get people to use their brains they are able to arrive the truth.
I only speak normaly about what I know and I always can prove in a math way. If not I don't speak or if I do I only give an opinion.
about 2 months ago
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John
Manuel Caetano:Julia, I don't need any prof.....

You do not need it because you have already decided what the "truth" is. Your paragraph proof you never let the facts or logic get in the way of your "truth.
about 2 months ago
#
Manuel
2+2=4
about 2 months ago
#
Julia
@John:

i am not interested in your opinion John. We are very different. We will never agree on anything. we are opposed poles. If I say something you will say the contrary.. If I say white you will say black. If I say this is good you will say this is bad. I have no interest in engage in a perpetual argument.

I come here to talk with people with who I can grow and make some sense of things. But in order to do that we need to have a common ground. Otherwise we will never get anywhere. People liek you get in the way of this,and I have no patience nor time to loose. You are free to express your opinion the same as me, just don't expect my sympathy.
this is why I don't even read Richard's posts.

about 2 months ago
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Julia
@Manuel: Okay. Fair point. Let me do some digging and get the facts for you :)
about 2 months ago
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John
And?
about 2 months ago
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Manuel
Julia don't you see? He even is able to understand that I am not looking for any truth here. I didn't star this topic and I have no information that allows me to discuss the subject. And when I say a haven't they have less than me. The only thing I am doing here is trying to find the lies and I already find a lot.
about 2 months ago
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John
It is obvious you are not concerned with the truth and you have no ability to use logic in regard to what is or is not a lie.
about 2 months ago
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Manuel
Well, at least the guy is able to spel my name correctly.
about 2 months ago
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Julia
Manuel: I noticed, hahaha.. "Manual de linguistica Caetano para todos ustedes !"
about 2 months ago
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Manuel
Hey Julia, I have to do other things now , so I'll go out. Just don't pay attention to these guys. and be polite with them they are just litle bad kids, probably unic sons in the family with to much attention. Good night to you.
about 2 months ago
#
Julia
@Manuel: Okay Manuel. Thanks for your advice. No worries I will take a deep breath!

---

OKAY proof: PLEASE DOWNLOAD THIS DOC.. READ PAGE 17

Crimes Against Humanity in Fallujah, Towards a Fair International Criminal Trial [4] <#_ftn4> , presented at the15th Session of the United Nations Human Rights Council


[4] <http://www.brusselstribunal.org/pdf/MHRI-Fallujah160910.pdf
about 2 months ago
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Manuel
That don't counts Julia. They only use the USA lows that are in the forge.


julia

  • Guest
Re: Fallujah Atrocity
« Reply #4 on: March 04, 2011, 21:03:12 PM »
4RTH PAGE

#
Julia
Oh, I see.
about 2 months ago
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John
Why?
about 2 months ago
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Julia
Here there is more proof. Only for those who have eyes to see.

http://www.uruknet.info/pic.php?f=14fatima-15212335.jpg

http://www.arabamericannews.com/news/index.php?mod=article&cat=Iraq&article=1202

http://www.tehrantimes.com/largPic.asp?10926%2F01_FALLUJAH55.jpg


http://coto2.files.wordpress.com/2010/07/deformed20child.jpg


http://axisoflogic.com/artman/publish/Article_60719.shtml

http://www.presstv.ir/detail/158514.html


http://img297.imageshack.us/i/fju1.png/



VIDEO: Deformed babies in Fallujah Iraq, sky news
http://www.ratedesi.com/video/v/CYnDw1ReVhw/Deformed-babies-in-Fallujah-Iraq
about 2 months ago


#
Yvonne
@Julia

The case is being made against the U.S. for the use of banned chemicals.

If a case is to be made in a world court, it must have substance, contain verifiable evidence and be irrefutable.

Now, Mr. Ingram and others say that Napalm was used, Richard says that it was not.
I will have a look again at Andew''s links, and apologize in advance if I've have missed something. As for Phosphorus, I have seem the confirmation comming from soldiers.

Several years have passed since the assaults on Falluhah. How long does it take to put a case together? Who is in the position to lodge such a complaint? Please don't tell me it's the U.N.
about 2 months ago
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John
If there was any truth to what you say, it would have been in court at The Hague.
about 2 months ago
#
John
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Court_of_Justice
about 2 months ago
#
Julia
@Yvonne:

Hi Yvonne. I am sorry I replied to your message and I wasn't careful enough.. I can see what you're saying. But do you think it is our job to provide this kind of proof? This seems like a job that a specialist should do.
about 2 months ago
#
Kerstin
thanks for the links julia ;)
about 2 months ago
#
Julia
I was looking for the Fallujah cables on wikileaks mirror websites.. and I can't find it. It might be under the archives section? I can't download the file What kind of format do they use? Is it adobe reader ?.. Has anyone tried to download it?

#
Kerstin
.
about 2 months ago
#
Manuel
No more music John? Maybe I have to share your IP with anan.
about 2 months ago
#
Kerstin
!
about 2 months ago
#
Andrew
@Everyone

The USA (and its crummy coalition of the "willing") invaded Iraq in 2003 on a blatant lie. Iraq had to attacked because of fear of WMDs we were originally told. Then it became a war for democracy. After that, a war against jihad. Then, most laughable of all, because the USA had to maintain Iraq's security! My point here: This was a fabrication right from the start and it just became worse as the years went by.

Moving onto the Battles of Falluja, circa 2004: From a military viewpoint these battles were meaningless and counterproductive because the resistance to USA invaders INCREASED after these battles. But be that as it may, when the USA military attacked the city in 2004, it adopted a strategy of collective punishment. Obviously, those not so wise and overpaid military masters in Washington, DC, were not familiar with their own history, because if they were, they would have realized that collective punishment does not work. Remember your own Vietnamese military history Mr. Lowery?


Anyway, by 2004, common sense was lost on the USA military and its political masters. They believed in their Public Relations, or Psych Ops as the military weirdly refers to it. So when several Blackwater employees were captured and murdered in Fallujah in early 2004, and this was broadcast repeatedly on USA TV screens, the natural knee jerk USA reaction was for revenge. The November 2004 battle was really an excuse to kick some Arab ass in retaliation for this "outrage" against Blackwater Inc.


But the Arabs in Fallujah fought back! So the USA military dropped all of its available ordinance on that city, including chemical weapons. Still the Fallujah resistance persisted. A motley irregular group of isolated Iraqi resistance fighters fought off the purportedly most strongest and well armed, trained, etc., military in the world all by themselves for two months! And this with no tanks. No heavy weapons. And no air force. Just guts and small arms. In my view, the USA military should not view this "victory" with adoration but with caution. Because overall, this battle failed in its objective! Which was the defeat of Iraqii resistance.


Moving to chemical weapons used by the USA military and especially Napalm. I am no legal expert, and this forum dear readers, is not a court of law. However, I do know that the USA military used "illegal" weapons in its invasion and occupation of Iraq. Any body with access to quality newspapers, books, and other media, would also know this fact.

Because certain readers of this particular WIkileaks topic have demonstrated a complete lack of basic English comprehension, I will spell it out for them: Yes, the USA military has used chemical weapons in its Iraq War and occupation. And I have more sources for them to digest this fact below.

Finally, it has not escaped my attention that all of my detractors, to date, all share one thing in common: Namely, they are all ex US military. Welcome to world that finds the actions of your military repulsive fellas. Take all your guns and bombs and bases and put them back in your own country for a change. The rest of the world does not like your arrogance, your venality, and especially your proclivity for senseless violence.

And now for some extra links explaining my case:

http://www.uncle-scam.com/Breaking/nov-05/ind-11-8.PDF

http://www.arabstoday.net/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=12558&catid=39&Itemid=111 (in Arabic, choose the English flag icon to translate)

http://www.heyetnet.org/eng/articles/1503-the-resort-to-indiscriminate-killings.html

http://www.twb-alwm.com/test/2011/01/02/%D8%A7%D8%B7%D9%81%D8%A7%D9%84-%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%81%D9%84%D9%88%D8%AC%D8%A9-%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%85%D8%B4%D9%88%D9%87%D9%8A%D9%86-%D8%B3%D8%A8%D8%A8%D9%87%D8%A7-%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%A3%D8%B3%D9%84%D8%AD%D8%A9/

http://www.globalsecurity.org/org/news/2003/030810-napalm-iraq01.htm

http://www.iraqanalysis.org/local/459_20050330IAGFirebombs.pdf

http://www.theage.com.au/news/world/iraq-doctor-brings-evidence-of-us-napalm/2006/05/22/1148150185038.html

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/03/21/1047749944836.html

about 2 months ago

#
Manuel
Hellow Andrew. Your God friend Richard didn't show up yet?
about 2 months ago
#
Yvonne
@Julia

Indeed your correct, it's for others to put the evidece together to present the case. So we ignore those requesting confirmation?

about 2 months ago
#
Yvonne
@Andrew

Thanks Andrew, it's all there and pretty sickening.

In the event that a case never makes it to the world court, and gets whitewashed from the history books, would it not be a good idea to mirror the sites you ve provided?
about 2 months ago
#
Julia
@Andrew:

I can tell you have done a lot of work in order to write your post. You've read many books and articles. Anybody who calls you a simple blog reader demonstrates that he has run out of arguments and thus resorts to violence in the form of personal attacks. It is a delight to read your posts because they are very well documented and articulated.

If I am not wrong you speak arabic. You know both sides of the coin and this makes you much more credible than anybody else who only bases their sources on one side of the coin.

I thank you for your work and I look forward to see where this goes.

I am trying to get the cables on Fallujah. I am having some technical problems. but my guess is that all the info and proof we need is there. The cables come from the usa military so they can't deny their own records as a valid source.

@Yvonne:
I think we shouldn't get distracted by those who request information as means to harm our "reputation" for a lack of better word . This is what I meant.
about 2 months ago
#
Julia
@Yvonne: And yes, that in order to build a legal case against the usa military, I doubt we can provide the type of scientific proof needed.. hence my comment about leaving it to a team if specialists. This type of commitment and financial resources is something that we lack. I rather see this thread as a platform of information.
about 2 months ago
#
Julia
bump
about 2 months ago
#
Yvonne
@Julia

Got it.

@Andrew

Ditto. Excellent piece of work.
about 2 months ago
#
Manuel
^
about 2 months ago
#
Andrew
@Julia, Yvonne, and Manuel
Thank you! Hopefully, piece by piece, the world will eventually know what really was done to the people of Falluajh in the name of "Democracy" in 2004. And then, at last, if justice still exists in this world, the war criminals responsible for this atrocity will have their day in court. Till then!
about 2 months ago
#
Julia
Thank YOU Andrew. This is something way too big to be silenced.. and those who committed the crimes need to be help accountable.
about 2 months ago
#
Julia
bump
about 2 months ago
#
Andrew
An addendum is appropriate here for all interested parties.

Independent journalist, Dahr Jamail, author of "Beyond the Green Zone," has reported that in January and February of 2005, the USA military authorities began demolishing and taking away to undisclosed locations the rubble of Fallujah homes and buildings they destroyed in the November and December 2004 battles. This was very strange behavior. It may have been a perfectly harmless gesture of goodwill to help rebuild the city after the battles, but methinks it was also a great way to dispose of most of the evidence that future investigators could have used to fathom out what had actually taken place in Fallujah.

Here is Jamail's story link:
http://www.countercurrents.org/iraq-jamail190105.htm

I would also like to add several more online resources for all interested folks to look at.
http://www.comw.org/warreport/iraqarchivefallujah.html
http://www.newstatesman.com/middle-east/2007/11/iraq-fallujah-city-military
http://www.truth-out.org/article/the-patriot-dahr-jamails-beyond-green-zone
about 2 months ago
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Manuel
Helo Andrew, it seams that our God friend Richard just vanished.
about 2 months ago
#
Andrew
Hello Manuel! For now. But I believe he is still around. They will be back. BTW, have you read any of his published work?
about 2 months ago
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Julia
Thank you Andrew. I am reading these articles as I type
about 2 months ago
#
Manuel
Sorry Andrew. I just can get more of the shit that I already have in my data base. Don't taque it personal but I just read something when I find something in my field or if I see that I need to read it to give a hand. Is just I don't whant to have more of this. I have enough. Any way I know that everything you post as a lot of serious work behind so, I am sure that what you says is the more exact that you can.
about 2 months ago
#
Neil
Andrew, Mr. Lowry seems to be what I call a volunteer government agent, if not actually being paid for writing that cr*p. He may have in fact gone away seeing you are indisputably more knowledgeable on the topic. This thread is awesome, btw.


julia

  • Guest
Re: Fallujah Atrocity
« Reply #5 on: March 04, 2011, 21:04:16 PM »
5th PAGE

#
Andrew
@Manuel
What is your field? If it is archeology, then I understand fully your reservation and skepticism regarding this and many other "historical" topics. I too share that sentiment by the way. Sometimes, I like to imagine "what would an historian, or archeologist say about this USA Iraq invasion and occupation at some future date in 2200 or 2100?" Provided we are still around as a viable species by that time. My guess is that it will not be the orthodox hagiography that Lowry advocated.

@Julia & Neil
Thank you! And I hope to keep it up with more future findings. Watch this space.:-)
about 2 months ago
#
Manuel
Science and investigation but not in Archeology,. When I was in scool I always said to my teachers that I had nothing to do with others life. Specialy when they have died undreds of years before I was born.
about 2 months ago
#
Andrew
Thank you Manuel! That is an excellent quote and very typical (of you).
about 2 months ago
#
Manuel
That's the truth Andrew. I am like this.
about 2 months ago
#
Andrew
OK. A bit of self disclosure here: I've always asked the question: "Why do these actions and figures of the past still relate to us?" But I've always been drawn to "what was" and "how" it relates to us anyway. That is who I am. I'm glad we can find a middle ground somewhere along the way.
about 2 months ago
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Manuel
Well Andrew. We can't never separate the past from the present. We are always a litle bit of the past. The only thing we can change (for now) is the future. Whatever actions we perform today will afect what the futue will be.
I think you woul like to read a book well about 4 books that are science fiction but I think that is very much more. I don't know if you can support that type of literature but if you did not reade it yet and decide to read it just don't read it as Fiction. Try to read it as an hipotetical situation based on the hystory. The books are from Isaac Asimov and are a trilogy named Impire and fundation.
about 2 months ago
#
Andrew
You got it Manuel! They are now on my "to read" list. Thanks! I gotta dash now! Till later!
about 2 months ago
#
Neil
I am looking forward to more information here.
about 2 months ago
#
Julia
I'm watching this trying to connect dots..

Joe Biden grills Gen. Petraeus on Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan (Part 1)
August 23, 2008

Joe Biden grills Gen. Petraeus on Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan (Part 1)




US was spending 3 bilions every week on Iraq .. can you imagine that?



part 2:

Joe Biden grills Gen. Petraeus on Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan (Part 2)

#
John
The US spends over seven billion dollars a week on the military. Is 3 billion a week a large number?
about 2 months ago
#
Julia
@John: Well, now that I think about it.. what is 3 bilion? of course.. it's nothing.. specially when you think that spending comes from public fund and goes back to the private fund of lobyists.. so yeah. I would say the more the better.. and also, who cares about people being killed it's part of the business..

For the rest of you well this video shows something.. did you notice it has been edited?
about a month ago
#
Andrew
@Julia
Yes, I did notice that the videos have been doctored. Like pretty much everything else in the Empire of War. It lies. It steals. It obfuscates. It even murders repeatedly. And usually gets away it. But nothing is forgotten. Nothing is ever forgotten.
about a month ago
#
Julia
@Andrew:
I remember watching this video before the 2008 elections. I was looking for info on Joe Biden.. The edits where parts where he got really mad. He completely trashed Petraeus.. he was so outraged.. and now they are on the same team.. can you believe that?
I also like that this video shows how little credibility these 2 guys have.. they have no arguments. What they did in Iraq was a massacre. But Biden is not as concerned with humanitarian causes as in spending..

He already had the plan to got to Afghanistan and Pakistan back then.. I believe he is the brain behind it. Obama doesn't know much about the war business this is why he picked Biden for VP
about a month ago
#
Andrew
@Julia
Biden and many of his fellow senators, are indeed part of the systemic problem that afflicts the permanent War State called the USA. He is, when you actually look at his actions, just continuing the policies of W Bush and his bunch of neo con radicals. After all, War is profitable (and good politically) for Democrats and Republicans.

Incidentally, and this I believe to be important, is the fact that even during the biggest environmental disaster in USA history, the Gulf of Mexico oil spill of 2010, the Pentagon continued giving billions of dollars of USA taxpayers' money to its number one supplier, British Petroleum. In short, despite the phoney political outrage about the oil spill, it was business as usual for the Pentagon.
about a month ago
#
Andrew
@Julia
Of course. But please don't take my word only for it. Here is a news link from the Washington Post that says the exact same thing as I.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/07/04/AR2010070403632.html
BP has steady sales at Defense Department despite U.S. scrutiny
Gallery
BP oil spill cleanup and containment
BP, the government and an army of volunteers are fighting to contain and clean the millions of gallons of oil spewing from the site of the Deepwater Horizon explosion in the Gulf of Mexico.
By R. Jeffrey Smith
Washington Post Staff Writer
Monday, July 5, 2010

If you want further elaboration, then please let me know. Basically, the permanent War state that is the USA needs petroleum to keep its engines of death running. BP, Exxon Mobil and others are very happy to fulfill that demand. Worse, their Corporate oil interests dovetail very nicely with those of the weapons manufacturers and the permanent War congress. Like I said, this is a systemic problem that Martin Luther King junior himself recognized back in 1967, via his Riverside Church, anti-war speech.
! Private video

It is up to us to stop this eternal war dance.

Andrew B.
about a month ago
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Julia
44 years after Marti Luther King's speech it is more poignant than ever
about a month ago

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Andrew
@Julia
Indeed! On a related note, have you observed a pattern in human political behavior over the centuries? Basically, the peacemakers don't live very long. Warmongers, on the other hand, appear to enjoy eternal life! This is strange to me. Perhaps we ape descendants just can't shake the thrill of killing others in a spectacular fashion? Or maybe our limited brains can't entirely understand what peace really means?

Whatever the reason is for our warlike tendencies, I do believe it is high time we, as a species, make a sincere attempt to transcend lethal violence as a means of solving problems. If the lopsided ratio of civilians killed vs soldiers killed in our modern wars is any guide, soon, if we continue on our present warlike course, then we may not even exist as a viable life-form for very much longer.
about a month ago
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Kerstin
thanks andrew, i think peeps should pay more attention to the pressing issues..
arround the world
about a month ago
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Reanimated Residue
Yeah Ive done a few things on War Crimes around this thread but these war crimes are amognst the worst Ive seen.

White Phosphorous in Fallughah.

White Phosphorus

Chemical warfare. Tsk. The other vids on the death and injuries this caused is pretty horrific.
about a month ago
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Julia
The usa military is trying to erase any proof of this developments but they can't erase the human tragedy they have provoked. This should be proof enough for the high courts to inflict justice to those responsible of the Fallujah atrocity. But when there is no intention of pursuing the rule of law, any excuse is good enough to stop it.

I guess the only thing we can do is to spread the word. Spread the word. Talk about it, let people know. This will pressurize high authorities.

about a month ago
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Kerstin
.
about a month ago
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Julia
Penderecki: Threnody for the Victims of Hiroshima
about a month ago
#
Kerstin
.
about a month ago
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Manuel
.
about a month ago
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Neil
Good Thread IMHO.
about a month ago
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Kerstin
dito
about a month ago
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Andrew
New Fallujah Battle Addendum:
Just when one thought things could not get any more twisted on this topic, along comes the new "reality" infotainment media of our time, a video/computer wargame about the battles of Fallujah. On one level, it is an exercise in "what matters" in our troubled times. On another, it a clear demonstration of the power of USA Imperial "perception management" at work. For the youth of tomorrow, especially potential young FB readers here, please don't swallow the official USA propaganda, hook, line and sinker, about this battle. Exercise you ability to critically think and above all, develop your humanity.

Now for the Fallujah Battle video/computer game story I made reference to above:
Gamers Can Experience Battle Of Fallujah
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=111145909
about a month ago
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Julia
@ Andrew: Thank you for this news Andrew. We must be alert on how young people are being manipulated by the entertainment industry.

This is an interesting book for children:

A Young People's History of the United States, by Howard Zinn
about a month ago
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Andrew
@Julia
Thank you Julia, I agree of course. The Howard Zinn book is a good step in the right direction. I have his original one, written for adults, at home. It is definitely not happy reading sometimes. But then again, real life (what history is made of) can be messy and complex too!
about a month ago
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Julia
I read A People's History of the United States too. I love it !

I think it is important for young people to know both sides of the coin because it teaches them critical thinking. I would quote Howard's introduction to his book for children but copyright matters won't allow me so I will give the link here.

http://books.google.com/books?id=aF5PqmK0fyYC&printsec=frontcover&dq=A+Young+People%27s+History+of+the+United+States&hl=en&ei=CNBATduhPMGblgfXoYGQAw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCQQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

This is a book I would like my children to read.

julia

  • Guest
Re: Fallujah Atrocity
« Reply #6 on: March 04, 2011, 21:05:04 PM »
6th PAGE


#
Andrew
@Julia
Mine too! The secret, for me, is to instill not only a love of reading in children, through example, but also critical thinking too. Once again, this must be demonstrated by example.
about a month ago
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Julia
Yes, absolutely. Children copy from models. You can't ask them to do something you don't apply to yourself. I believe children who acquire critical thinking have a better chance of success in life... for obvious reasons. I used to read a lot as a child and also when I was younger but have fallen flat in the habit lately.. I read many blogs and articles but it's not the same.

(Sorry for the off-topic)
about a month ago
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Andrew
This story won't be forgotten. And since I last posted on this thread about the twin 2004 Battles of Fallujah, new documents and new stories about them have come to my attention. Below is a selection of them. This time, I want to highlight the very large role that a US private army, Blackwater Inc., played in the instigation of these battles. In short, without these freebooters of War, there would probably not have been two battles of Fallujah in 2004. And consequently many innocent lives would have been saved.


1) http://www.historycommons.org/context.jsp?item=4BlckwtrEmplysKlldFallujah
Context of 'March 31, 2004: Four Blackwater Employees Killed and Mutilated in Fallujah'

2) http://www.historycommons.org/context.jsp?item=operationPhantomFury#operationPhantomFury
Context of 'November 8, 2004: US Military Begins Massive Offensive to Retake Fallujah; Observers Cite Systematic Brutality Towards Civilians'

3) http://www.mtholyoke.edu/~eaton22l/classweb/blackwater/fallujah.html

4) http://www.c-span.org/pdf/blackwater100207.pdf
PRIVATE MILITARY CONTRACTORS IN IRAQ:
AN EXAMINATION OF BLACKWATER’S ACTIONS IN FALLUJAH

5) http://revcom.us/a/1236/blackwater.htm
After Fallujah: The Truth About the Blackwater Mercenaries
about a week ago
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Colin
It was forgotten by you for a month,,,LOL The US already forgot..
about a week ago
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Andrew
Thank you CC for commenting on this topic. I appreciate your thoughtfulness in making sure this thread gets read.
about a week ago
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Julia
@Andrew: I will read this tonight. Thanks for the update!
on Monday
#
Andrew
You are welcome Julia!

mystery

  • Guest
Re: Fallujah Atrocity
« Reply #7 on: March 04, 2011, 23:07:28 PM »
Thank you Julia for resurrecting this FB WL Thread of mine.
It is much appreciated. 
AB

julia

  • Guest
Re: Fallujah Atrocity
« Reply #8 on: March 05, 2011, 02:09:44 AM »
Andrew,
I posted it because this is a topic that needs to be discussed, even though it is  really tough. I need to be in the right mindset to read these articles and look at the pictures, but as I said someone has to.

From the articles you provided it looks like the killing of the 4  Blackwater mercenaries was what prompted the US forces to attack Fallujah so fiercely. BUT at the same time, the 4 mercenaries were killed because of a negligence of Blackwater. Even they admitted it themselves (not providing enough safety in the vehicle, make them take a dangerous route with no map..)  What do you make of this? Are you thinking the same as me?.. and if so.. what would be the benefit of it all? the arms industry?
« Last Edit: March 05, 2011, 02:12:21 AM by julia »

julia

  • Guest
Re: Fallujah Atrocity
« Reply #9 on: March 05, 2011, 03:10:52 AM »
I think this cable fits in here:

(It fits into many categories actually)


CABLE: IRAQ PETROLEUM CONFERENCE 2008: DIALOGUE

E.O. 12958: N/A
TAGS: EPET EINV ECON IZ UK
SUBJECT: IRAQ PETROLEUM CONFERENCE 2008:  DIALOGUE,
CAUTIOUS OPTIMISM ON OPPORTUNITIES IN IRAQ'S OIL SECTOR
 
¶1.  (SBU) Summary.  Iraq Petroleum 2008, held in London December 1-2, 2009, was a good opportunity for Iraqi officials, representatives from international companies, and participants from other governments to discuss the current situation in Iraq's petroleum sector, focusing particularly on investment opportunities.  Presenters included a number of veterans of Iraq's oil sector, as well as outside experts from the petroleum industry and elsewhere.  The speakers covered the strategic outlook for Iraq's petroleum sector, upstream and downstream investment prospects, the role of the international oil companies (IOCs) in Iraq's development, and the political, financial, and legal aspects of the petroleum sector.  All speakers and participants agreed that IOC involvement is vital to building up Iraq's oil and gas sectors, and there was broad consensus that the GOI needs to find the right balance of state control and IOC risk/reward in future contracts to maximize the potential of Iraq's resources.  The recent precipitous drop in world oil prices added urgency to calls for developing Iraq's petroleum sector.  There was wide agreement that the time is right for progress on national hydrocarbons legislation and development of the oil and gas sectors, while acknowledging the difficulty of the tasks ahead.  End summary.

Iraq's Petroleum Sector:  Present and Future --------------------------------------------

¶2.  (U) Many speakers noted that Iraq's petroleum sector is significantly underdeveloped, due largely to years of neglect and mismanagement through three wars and the sanctions period, as well as the departure of many qualified technocrats in 2003.  Similarly, many mentioned declining production in the South as a significant impediment to Iraq's economic growth.  Often in the same breath, however, many speakers pointed to the enormous potential of Iraq's petroleum sector, pointing to its 115 billion barrels of proven crude oil reserves - more according to Iraqi estimates - and 1.5 trillion cubic feet of natural gas reserves.  One speaker said, "The market will take anything Iraq can produce."  Another speaker observed that Iraq is uniquely placed as potentially the largest incremental crude oil producer in the world and should exploit that to the country's benefit.  Advisor to the Prime Minister and former Oil Minister Thamir Ghadbhan and others pointed to the need for a national energy strategy, which would help Iraq comprehensively and rationally deal with its substantial resources.  The GOI continues to tout six million barrels per day (MBPD) as the 10-year crude oil production target.

¶3.  (U) The upstream and downstream development and investment opportunities in Iraq are significant, conference participants agreed.  Not only are there opportunities for currently-producing oil and gas fields, some of which are super giants, but there is also significant exploration potential throughout Iraq.  Speakers pointed to the recently-begun tender process for some of Iraq's oil and gas fields, as well as plans to offer more fields and exploration blocks in future tenders.  Mustafa al-Jarrah of the Iraqi Ministry of Industry and Minerals noted that there are significant opportunities in petrochemicals too.  Many noted, however, that the keys for additional development and investment are the legal and regulatory framework that the GOI chooses to implement, as well as the structure of the contracts offered by the GOI.

Iraq and the IOCs -----------------

¶4.  (U) Much of the conference focused, in particular, on how much IOC and national oil company (NOC) involvement is needed in Iraq.  Speakers and participants outlined the long history between Iraq and the IOCs, from pre-nationalization to post-2003 technical assistance, making it explicitly clear that Iraq's oil and gas resources belong to Iraq, and that Iraqis have no desire to be controlled by outsiders.  That said, there was unanimous agreement that the IOCs offer technical expertise, technological advances, and financial resources that the Iraqis simply don't have in their domestic petroleum sector.  Falah al-Khawaja, a former Director General at the State company for Oil Projects, argued that the global petroleum sector is very different now than it was in the 1970s, and that Iraq can now deal with major IOCs and NOCs from a position of strength.  As such, the GOI needs to figure out the extent of its engagement with the IOCs, and how to present that engagement to the Iraqi people to avoid the impression that Iraq's oil sector is run by outsiders. Kjetil Tonstand of Statoil-Hydro argued that Iraq must determine how it will attract the right IOCs to develop Iraq's petroleum sector.  Dr. Abdul Hadi al-Hassani, Vice Chairman of Parliament's Oil and Gas Committee, was a particularly strong advocate for greater leadership -  LONDON 00003186  002 OF 003   particularly from the Iraqi Council of Representatives - in soliciting popular support, as well as an improved banking system, and more domestic and international transparency in the oil and gas sectors.

¶5.  (U) Many of the IOC representatives expressed some indifference toward the conference, believing that it covered already well-trod ground.  They were also unimpressed by the then-upcoming December 5-7 Energy Expo in Baghdad.  There continues to be frustration among IOC representatives about how the GOI is handling its oil and gas contracts.  IOC representatives argue that the contract structure brings a lot of risk with relatively little upside, and it remains to be seen how closely the GOI will hew to the announced schedule of the first contracting round.

Bring Back INOC ---------------

¶6.  (U) Many speakers and participants lamented the current structure of Iraq's petroleum industry, which they see as too political and centrally-controlled by the Oil Ministry.  One solution that received nearly unanimous backing was the reconstitution and increased role of the Iraqi National Oil Company (INOC).  Many Iraqis in attendance spoke highly of INOC and its history of managing Iraq's oil sector, pointing to the nearly four mbpd in production reached at the end of the 1970s.  The repeated argument was that INOC would mange the petroleum sector better than the Oil Ministry, and that the operating companies should come under INOC's umbrella. Dr. al-Hassani argued that the GOI must fund INOC properly to bring it to parity with IOCs.  Fadhil Chalabi, former acting Secretary-General of OPEC and now with the Centre for Global Energy Studies, cautioned that INOC must remain apolitical and be run on a commercial basis, akin to other commercial state-owned oil companies like Statoil-Hydro or Petrobras.

The (Unpopular) Heads of Agreement with Shell ---------------------------------------------

¶7.  (U) Participants express nearly unanimous concern about the recently-signed Heads of Agreement (HoA) on southern gas between the GOI and Royal Dutch Shell.  Though the Iraqis present were content with the joint venture arrangement, others cited problems including a lack of transparency; the fact that  HoA precludes the GOI from talking to other IOCs about gas in the coming year, thereby creating a monopoly; the HoA's review of export options when domestic concerns were a priority; and the fact that the HoA dictates that the joint venture must sell Iraqi gas domestically at international market rates.

Political, Financial, and Legal Ramifications ---------------------------------------------

¶8.  (U) While noting the many political obstacles to the development of Iraq's petroleum sector, many of the Iraqis present indicated that the current political and economic situation may produce the right incentives for compromise on necessary hydrocarbons legislation.  There was a great deal of optimism among many at the conference for Oil Minister Shahristani's late November visit to Erbil to discuss adding Kurdistan Regional Government (KRG)-produced crude oil to the Iraq-Turkey export pipeline.  While many called the visit a breakthrough, Ghadbhan noted that the nature of the KRG's contracts and revenue sharing had not yet been discussed. Additionally, former Oil Minister Ibrahim Bahr al-Uloum was one of many who noted that there is currently a positive environment for agreement on hydrocarbon legislation.  Some, including Dr. Al-Hassani, even mentioned passing a hydrocarbons framework law by spring 2009.

¶9.  (U) Given the recent precipitous drop in world oil prices, many speakers noted the significant shift in the GOI's fiscal outlook.  The GOI is likely to run a real deficit of USD 15-25 billion in 2009, and will have difficulty funding necessary capital investment projects beyond 2009, if oil prices remain around current levels, participants agreed.  Dr. Colin Rowat of the University of Birmingham argued that this presents the GOI with an opportunity to assess current and capital expenditures based on rate of return, rather than simply providing money when it is requested, as was its general practice during the oil price boom.  Ghadbhan noted that declining government revenue has only added on the pressure on the Oil Ministry to increase production.

¶10.  (U) As many speakers reiterated, the Oil Ministry's efforts to increase production take place amidst legal and regulatory ambiguity over who controls the development, management, and revenues of Iraq's petroleum sector.  All  LONDON 00003186  003 OF 003   legal experts harkened back to Articles 111 and 112 of the 2005 Constitution and the legal ambiguity surrounding them. Dr. Carole Nakhle of the Surrey Energy Economics Centre and J. Jay Park of Macleod Dixon LLP discussed some of the GOI's legal options, including the structure of contracts and the constitutional issues involved.  Nakhle urged the GOI to come up with a legal framework similar to that adopted for the North Sea, which would allow the government to maintain control over the resources but would also give companies maximum flexibility to develop Iraq's oil and gas fields. Interestingly, Dr. Al-Hassani pointed out that upstream (and some downstream) activities could be decentralized to the regions/provinces, although the legal questions still have to be answered.

Comment -------

¶11. (SBU) The conference demonstrated that the Iraqis are thinking seriously about the issues that face them, but it is unclear how much traction these ideas have among Oil Ministry leadership.  It was somewhat encouraging to hear Iraqi participants speak so highly of IOC involvement and focus on development and involving the domestic Iraqi private sector in the petroleum sector, although they were unable to provide many specifics ways to solve their problems.  Even in the face of some optimism that contract tenders have been offered and that the apparent thaw in GOI-KRG relations can bring about national hydrocarbons legislation, the mood at the conference was somewhat subdued, with many participants acknowledging that the GOI continues to face many of the same issues it has for quite some time.  Visit London's Classified Website: XXXXXXXXXXXX
TUTTLE
« Last Edit: March 05, 2011, 03:12:26 AM by julia »